Telos Initiative
Telos is a term used by the philosopher Aristotle to refer to the final cause or purpose of something. Our telos is to seek truth and cultivate wisdom using dialogue and rational discussion. The podcast will cover a wide range of topics in various genres and we hope to grow with our audience toward our ultimate purpose in this mystifying existence.
Telos Initiative
Episode 10 - Abundance
Have you ever considered that true abundance might not be about wealth at all? This episode of our podcast invites you to explore abundance as a concept that transcends material possessions, focusing instead on joy, friendships, and virtues. We kick off with a light-hearted story about a simple joke shared with a stranger, illustrating how abundance can manifest in unexpected ways. By contrasting this notion with greed, we uncover how genuine abundance encourages sharing rather than hoarding, with Mr. Beast's philanthropy as a shining example of how excess can be transformed into societal good.
Shifting gears, we tackle the heavier aspects of abundance and responsibility, emphasizing the importance of aligning our actions with our values. The conversation challenges the common perception that moral integrity requires sacrificing material possessions. Instead, we advocate for a balanced approach that respects personal values while maintaining a spirit of generosity. Through thoughtful reflection, we highlight how our choices reflect what we truly prioritize, underscoring the transient nature of material wealth and the power of purposeful giving.
In a playful yet insightful turn, we compare life to the game of chess, where strategic moves can foster not just personal growth but enhance relationships too. Drawing on Piaget's observations and personal anecdotes, we discuss how dominance in games might secure short-term wins but can cost friendships in the long run. True leadership, we argue, is about helping others improve, creating a culture of mutual growth and inclusion. We conclude with reflections on the interplay between material abundance and spiritual scarcity, advocating for virtues like temperance to help us navigate life's complexities while encouraging listeners to take positive, purposeful actions.
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative. I'm Angelo Cole.
Chris:I'm Chris Vigil
Matt:and I'm Matt Maes
Angelo:we're going to be talking about abundance and scarcity. So, Matt, you originally were the one to bring up this topic. It piqued your interest for some reason. Why don't you start us off?
Matt:Well, it's something that I think we're all, deep down, are looking for in our lives, and it's gotten so muddled in a lot of ways, our idea of abundance, like when we say someone is looking for abundance or I want to bring more abundance into my life. What do we all think of?
Matt:wealth right, which is a part of it, right, but abundance is also in our way of living also it it can be a joyful way that we approach life. It can be. We can have abundance in many different things. We can have an abundance of joy, we can have an abundance of friends. You know in our friend circle A lot of different things. I think another word that I come back to is flourish, right?
Angelo:Flourish yeah.
Matt:Yeah, flourishing. When we have like a flourishing existence, we feel that sense of flourish within ourselves, and that's really what we're a lot of. Where I want to go to in this discussion too, is that flourish originating inward and expressing itself outwardly okay, how would you specifically define abundance and how would you differentiate it from something like having too much?
Matt:I would say that abundance is well, abundance is life giving. You know and yeah, I'm so glad that you bring that up Like there can be too much of something and there's also a lot of benefit in when you have to go without too, which is, you know, we'll get to a lot of that in this conversation as well Is, you know what to do when perhaps you don't feel a lot of external abundance in your life. But you can also have that internal abundance in your situation. You can. You can have, you know, a lot of people have, you know, that internal, well, positive, life-giving mentality and you know that sense of joy within themselves, and then you can carry that around you with you know, everywhere you go.
Matt:So here's, you know, here's one example. You can just do this in everyday situations. Like many times I'd go to the, go to the grocery store and I would see someone like, just, you know, look into the vegetables and be like, excuse me, these are actually my vegetables. I mean, maybe you can look at them and I tell you, nine times out of ten people just turn and they'll be delighted.
Matt:And a lot of them will just kind of play along Because it's like wow, someone invited me into this fun game.
Angelo:What a peculiar event.
Matt:Yes, exactly, and it's like wow, that was outstanding and cool event. Yes, exactly, it's like wow, that was outstanding and cool. And it's, you know, it creates this, uh, this bond of joy and kinship that you can have with people that just originated from within. You're just, you know, you're having fun. Basically, you're going around and you're, you know you're having a good time and, um, you know, I walk away from the situations like just feeling, you know, feeling very, very uplifted. You know, feeling very joyful in the ways that I go about my day so in that moment you had an abundance of humor.
Chris:Yes, and you were sharing that with someone else. Yes, exactly, and you can have a variety of non-physical abundance, like an abundance of virtue oh yeah, oh, absolutely.
Matt:So that I love that you say that like you can tie in that abundance with like many different facets. You know many different things and when you can point to that in someone else, it's like say they have that potential within them you know you have this, you know you have a sense of humor and you're just going about your day and then someone like points a light to that and you know it's inviting. Yeah, you know it's uh it's seductive in a way, positively seductive in a way you know what do you think about?
Matt:about abundance being this idea that it's enough, you have enough to share with others yeah, well, like in the you know verse in the bible like my cup floweth over right that you have that you have that within you and it's you have so much that it naturally comes out of it.
Matt:It just naturally comes out of your being Sure, Right, and so this also gets into the mentality of you know, if we're talking about wealth, right, there's a mentality there of that person embodies ideas of abundance. You know, we could talk about somebody who's like I'm talking about people who have this positive, abundant mindset versus somebody who's, you know, we have people who are like greedy and filthy rich and we're talking about, you know, we're talking about like too much and all that kind of stuff.
Matt:I actually feel that a lot of them have a sense of lack that they are trying to fill, and it's like trying to fill a sieve that nothing ever sustains it right.
Angelo:Yeah, I would almost say greed is the desire to have more than you need, While abundance would be like you might have more than you need, but it's not necessarily a negative thing Having an abundance of something could be. You could be saving it for later. If you have an abundance of food, you might say well, this is in preparation for times of scarcity.
Matt:Yeah, definitely, and it matters so much what you do with that too. Like my 11-year-old son, he's been watching a lot of you know. I'm sure you've heard of mr beast right yes extremely popular youtuber.
Matt:He does all kinds of different things, has these insanely popular videos and very wealthy guy, right, right. But he also gives to a lot of things. He'll, you know, he'll like build houses in these impoverished places and like all these different things and like he is very, he's like, very, very generous in a lot of different ways, right, and so look at that, and that's a good financial lesson my son's here and I told him, like, look at how he what he does with his wealth, look at what like. Look at how he what he does with his wealth, look at what like. Look at how he shares it, look at how he spreads it around, right, so he can look at that point to that and be like, oh that's, you know, it's so powerful having like a a good example.
Chris:He has abundance and an abundance of generosity.
Angelo:Yes, I feel like there is a connection between abundance and charity or generosity. You need to be able to have more than you need in order to give to others, and so there's a necessary component of compassion there, and we're all systematically doled out a certain amount would we ever be able to express compassion and give.
Chris:I don't know why you're looking at me like I have the answer.
Angelo:Oh, I'm you. I thought you had an abundance of knowledge. I thought we all thought we did.
Matt:Isn't that why we're doing this? Instead, you just have a bun.
Matt:Yes, look at this gorgeous, look at look at obviously abundance, and abundantly, yeah, yeah, it takes care of, and that's. That's another good example, I mean, you say, as it is an example too, another facet of abundance is caretaking, you know, like taking care of yourself, or it's so funny that, like before the episode, I see cleaning. We've actually been doing some cleaning around our house too, where, if you have, well, if you can't take care of the things that you have, then how can you possibly expect to take care of more, right, right? So I've been coming back to this the gestures of your hand, like an open hand, like this, be neither like this, with your fingers spread apart, nor with a clenched fist and clasping on, but like this. This is both giving and receiving. Right, you're neither grasping too tightly nor are you too loose that you let things slide through your fingers, but it's that middle ground like that.
Angelo:The middle way.
Matt:The middle way. So when you take care of the things around you, it's going into responsibility. It's going into responsibility, it's that integrity, right? There's a connection between what you say, that you want, what you truly care for, and your actions matching that, actually doing it Like if you get in a new thing you were. Well, it's coming back to a concept that we spoke about, I believe, on our last episode about the values around us, right?
Matt:so again, caretaking for what's around you and, regardless of if you actually believe in pantheism or whatever, try and act as if that were true right. Act as if things around you right are thou and you care for them and you have a stewardship with them, so that that also increases your capacity for responsibility. So when things come your way, then you know what to do with them.
Angelo:You have the capacity to caretake, perhaps treat life with a sense of fullness right.
Angelo:Everything you do, all of your actions, should be full of your energy, full of life, full of your effort, even down to the level of attention. What you give your attention to is what you care about, and even if you don't think about it that much, you're making a decision. Every time you switch where your eyes are pointing, every time you choose to look at one thing over another, for whatever reason, you're giving care to that thing, reason you're giving care to that thing. And so the more you're you, the more you make that salient to yourself, the more you're aware of your choice and what you care about, the more full your life will be, the more present you will be. If you're and let's look at the opposing side of that if you don't take care in what you're giving your attention to and what you're giving your effort to and your energy to, you're going to be on autopilot, you're going to be mindless and, in the sense of abundance, you're not fully present in that moment. You're not fully there, taking care of your reality to its fullest capacity.
Matt:That's right. Very, very well put, beautifully put.
Chris:Well, all this kind of reminds me of that beatitude. Right Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Angelo:I'm pretty sure that's what it is or is it they shall inherit the earth? I can't remember.
Chris:I cannot remember either. Does anyone have a Bible on them? Well, it's something good right so blessed are the poor in spirit.
Angelo:It might. Be blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Chris:I think you're right, that one's yes. But not just like being poor, right being poor in spirit, having an abundance, you can have an abundance. I think I remember Jordan Peterson saying something like it's okay to make money, it's not easy to make money. So if you can make money like, yeah, please, it's yours, it's yours, the world is your oyster. Have that abundance, but have the spirit of poverty with you, too, to be generous with what you have, and I like the idea of abundance and fullness as well.
Angelo:I think people get caught up in this notion that they need to give up possession in order to be morally right. They need to get rid of their belongings, and there are a few verses in the Bible and other theological practices where they call for you to give away your material possessions. But I don't think it's a black and white issue. I don't think it's a black and white issue. I don't think it's as simple as oh. If you just give up what you own, that makes you a good person. There's got to be some sense of reciprocity there. It matters what you're giving up your material possessions for. There's got to be some deeper reason beneath that. If you're just giving it up just to show that you're a good person, there's not really much there. You're just forcing yourself to be poor for no good reason. But if you're giving it to a good cause, let's say something you really believe in and it truly makes a difference through your charity. I think, uh, there's a higher moral sentiment there.
Matt:Yeah, and if we're thinking about it from the position of the person who is being asked to give up their material possessions, that also speaks to that they actually have things to give up their material possessions. That also speaks to that they actually have things to give up too. You know, like I hear, I've heard more and more often like people who have gotten to this point and it's like, oh, you know, all these things didn't matter, whatever. But I've never, I've never heard of someone um, how to say this aspiring not to have them for its own sake, right, usually they get to that place and then they say, oh, I got to the top of the hill, and then, you know, I found it, it was meaningless, and then they give those, those things up, but it's like, at least you should at least have the perspective I think, allow yourself to have the perspective to be at the place where you can understand that or you can um, where you can have the things to freely.
Matt:You know you can choose what perspective you have. You actually, you actually get to the point where you have actually attained what you want to attain and then say you know, I went there, I got to that place and you know, this is this is my perspective, whereas like a person who who's experienced that, who has gotten to that place of wealth, like they have the choice of whether or not they want to have the things Right the alternative you don't have the choice.
Angelo:There's a saying a hearse is never followed by a U-Haul Meaning when you die you can't take anything with you.
Matt:So what are you going to do?
Angelo:with all the stuff you accumulate.
Chris:I've never heard that before.
Angelo:That's pretty good, but my best estimation on what you should do when you accumulate a lot of stuff is well, the first thing that comes to mind is give it to your kids, right, pass it on, and maybe there's a slightly more selfish element there where it's like, well, they're my kids. Of course, that's the best thing that I could pass it on to, but it's also your as a. It's tricky because, as a parent, you're responsible yeah, for your children's well-being.
Matt:So it's not entirely selfish I I, I've been thinking about this more often too and I think it could be precipitated. Like you know, my wife actually work, she runs this program that is around family businesses and she's like around a lot of that kind of world, right is it's really? It's it's strange to me, this idea, now that I've I've thought more about it, how, like you grow up, you know you grow up, you're, uh, you get to the a certain age and it's like, oh, you got to get out of the house, you got to go get a job, you got to go do this other thing, right. Whereas if you have a family business and you say you know the first person like started this enterprise and then you have this ongoing multi-generational legacy thing.
Matt:Right this ongoing multi-generational legacy thing, right? So why is it such a tradition that you know we're kind of expected to go and just do this? Completely other thing right start at ground zero.
Matt:Try and build up from the first generation right, rather than have a multi-generational thing Like of course. If you do that, then you have a higher chance of building a legacy thing like a family legacy thing. That's what you have, these businesses, these family businesses that have been around for like 100 or so years, because that's what they did. That was the strategy.
Angelo:I kind of miss that era yeah when it was like an apprenticeship sort of deal, and even if it wasn't, your immediate family it would.
Matt:There would just be an intimate sharing of your abundance of skill yeah, and it's like no, I'm not gonna, you know, just expect you to go out and just just do it on your own, like no, like, come with the family and come help build this thing.
Angelo:And there's a pride in your craft. You know whatever you're doing. Let's say you're like a shoemaker and you just know how to make any kind of shoe. You're fast at it, you're good at it. You have something unique to your brand. These are everybody knows your style of shoe that you make.
Angelo:Oh yeah you want to pass that on to the next, and if you don't have children of your own, who are you going to pass it on to? Well, you've got to bring someone in. And I feel like that whole apprentice idea is sort of lost with time. We live in an era where it's kind of like go into the system and learn, just we're going to throw a bunch of skills at you and you kind of just narrow it down from there and, once you get your okay, your sheet of paper, go and figure it out, good luck. And there's no intimacy there. There there's no um, you don't really have a close mentor necessarily. I mean it's not completely gone. There are definitely mentors and apprenticeships and things still going on, but I just think in our culture people think, uh, the job, the career idea has begun become like a so dead, it's like a graveyard.
Matt:Yeah maybe it goes there's, no, there's no personal touch to it yeah, um, maybe it goes hand in hand with this very kind of american idea too of the individualism and the you know, pull yourself, and there's a lot of merits, thatism and the you know, pull yourself up, and there's a lot of merits to that too, like the personal grit and the personal sovereignty of your individual experience and your individual power, you know. But that doesn't mean that you individually have to go it alone, right, you can bring that into whatever venture it is that you're doing and have that, that sense of vitality and power.
Matt:and you know that optimism of abundance in what you're doing right.
Angelo:I would tie it back to like the industrial revolution, I think, once we started treating people like assembly lines and people started turning into these uh machines because the process to make things became more complex, you needed several stages, right. So this guy's doing this piece and this guy's doing this piece, and you're kind of going down the line to make this complicated thing that you would never be able to make as efficiently on your own. Once that sort of mindset started happening, how can you have your own personal touch to something that's bigger than you? And so it's almost like the company's brand becomes the personal touch.
Chris:But you know, I think whatever happens with you know, factories and branding and the economy, that's one thing, but I I would like to return to the fact that everything that we just said is like a perfect metaphor for non, uh, like immaterial abundance, um, because that's what we kind of, the whole apprenticeship thing that's, and passing something on to our legacy. That's what we do with our faiths, right, and our religions that we ascribe to. It's like these ancient ideas, excuse me, it's like these ancient ideas of philosophy and theology and god and virtue all channeled into like a single faith and for Christians, right, a single symbol or a single man that become spiritually and immaterially, enters into our reality and then those graces and those virtues and those good things that we have multiplies as we share them with others. Yes, and sometimes that includes an apprenticeship, like a spiritual director, or just like showing up to the ballgame and opening up your holy books and reading it and engaging with it.
Angelo:Makes me think of the and we keep quoting the Bible here but it makes me think of the uh and I we keep quoting the bible here but it makes me think of the fishes and the loaves story of christ. Right, they didn't have enough, and somehow it was more than enough for everyone to share, even though it was an abundance, yeah there was an abundance.
Matt:Yes, wow, you know. I think it really speaks to like the idea of happiness too, like how we now understand more of happiness and how we can have more happiness in our lives and say we have a group of people actually there's an excellent analogy for this where you have this classroom and every single person in that classroom has has a balloon. They write their name on the balloon, and then they put all the balloons into the hallway and they scattered them all around the place, right, and everyone's trying to find their balloon.
Matt:It takes them forever, but then then, um, then the game changes and say someone else finds your balloon and they give it to you, right, every, all of a sudden, everyone, it comes back you know the thing of the spoons right kind of oh yeah, yeah right is all of a sudden, everyone has their own balloon with their name on it so it's the idea of the collective joy and the collective good, the collective happiness. It's like that. That kind of happiness is like the intelligence that you can.
Matt:Not only can you experience happiness through your own gratification, but also through another person's ground there's a shared of upwards a shared abundance and through that you actually multiply your sources of happiness mm-hmm through all the people who you can light up happiness within them right and then you just put yourself in the very best position to have multiple sources of abundance around you in your social circle. I mean, what better position could you possibly be in than that?
Angelo:Yeah, so the psychologist Piaget studies the development of children and he was looking into kids playing games and what he noticed is that when you have a group of kids and there's like maybe one kid who's really good at a game, if he just tries to dominate the other kids and just completely, uh, win every single game, maybe he wins in the short term, but in the long run, those kids, the other kids, will stop wanting to play with him. He becomes like less likely to play the future game. So there's like a bigger game, it's like a game within a game. Yeah, and what he noticed is if they're willing to give up a little or share even a little more um than half of what they have, the other kids pick up on that and they're like, oh, I want to play with that kid, I want to play with the kid who lets me win a little more, even if he wins sometimes.
Matt:And uh, that's like the best position to be in is in the position where you're giving a lot to, where other people notice your generosity and abundance definitely, and when I think a real leadership quality in terms of competition is when you're actually making the people that you're playing with better too, even if and I would even say especially if you're playing in a game that's in opposition to them, right, like here's. Another example is I love chess and my family loves playing chess, right and whenever.
Angelo:Yeah, oh yeah, I'll throw down some chess.
Chris:I'll throw down some chess Target target I love it.
Matt:So whenever we go on vacation, especially my wife and I, we have a small chess board, a small portable chess board that we bring with us. Right, and we'll make time to play these games.
Matt:Say what we could be having, like a brunch, right, and we'll play a chess game in the space of that brunch wow yeah, it's pretty cool bunch of nerds, so yeah, and you know, sometimes she'll get me, sometimes I'll get her, and and I've noticed, sometimes I've noticed there's, there's also like a psychological advantage to who challenges who too oh, really oh yeah, oh yeah, like she challenges me, I'm like, okay, I know she's gonna, she's gonna bring it.
Matt:I gotta game up up and then, if I do the same, I'm like I'm coming, but you know we'll have little chess tournaments and like the last one that we played. We just got back from vacation celebrating my sister and brother-in-law's vow renewal. They've been married for 10 years.
Matt:Nice and yeah, so we got to have a little vacation. We played chess in this last game oh my god, it was like it was so close. I thought I was fried like a number of times, right, but I was just able to outmaneuver and you know some different ways and and then there were just a few you know key missteps that were made, that she made, that was able to like reverse the you know momentum and and that sort of thing, and and I finally got it, finally got the, the checkmate.
Matt:The first thing I said was, like you know what I just have to say, like you, really run for my money just now, like acknowledging like she's a, she's a force to be reckoned with in chess man, like so she's really good. And then we're going and we're analyzing the different moves. You know what went down on the board. You know analyzing, looking at those, what could have been done differently.
Chris:Did you notate them in algebraic notation? No, not that much.
Matt:Oh, okay, wow, oh, never mind. Hesitation, no, not that much. Okay, wow, oh, never mind. No, but I have, I have a chest during all. I should probably use that more. But uh, but I could have just been like, oh yeah, oh yeah dude, you know, but you know what do I get out of that?
Matt:so I want my victories to be defined by how well I did, not by the mistakes that she made. I want her to actually be a competent person to play against Right, and therefore my playing against her will also make me better. And then we leapfrog and she becomes better. And then I become better and she becomes better. We both become better and she becomes better. We both become better. Right, which, if you actually look at the word competition, it ties in with the word competence.
Matt:It's about improvement it's not about one person beating another person that's, the other people in a game are factors to you. You can only play your game. You can only play your own game. Think about that. You can't control what the other person is going to do. You can respond, they can respond to what you're doing, but you're only ever playing from first-person perspective.
Chris:And that's true on team things as well right, other members of your team? They're not you, you're not them. You have to cohesively play together in the competition, and how are you?
Angelo:going to get better. If the other person isn't seeing something that you're not seeing, right, you need a challenge in order for if the other person isn't seeing something that you're not seeing, you need a challenge in order for yourself to move forward.
Chris:That's right. Well, it sounds like you and Helena are very gracious chess players, and I'm not.
Matt:You're the kid who nobody wants to play with.
Chris:He won't let anybody win. Too many people bullied me when I was a child, so they're going down. No reciprocity.
Matt:I like that ferocity though. I like it, and that's one thing Like yeah a fierce chess win.
Angelo:I give it to you. The bigger the ego, the harder the fall.
Matt:I will tell you one thing I've noticed. We'll get back to abundance here in a second.
Chris:Oh yeah, Talk about abundance, yeah right.
Matt:But I have noticed that, like if I'm on the defense, like I usually play as the dark pieces, Sure.
Matt:If the light pieces are trying too quickly to get to the back and to go on the offense, that actually ends up working against you a lot of the time, because then if I build up my defenses the right way, if I actually overcome that attack, then you can actually end up losing key pieces in that attack and then I can reverse the uh, the momentum right, because the dark pieces are about counter. They're not about, they're not as much about the, the initial moves they're. They're more about response and I'm like giving my right chest, but they're more about intelligently responding.
Matt:It's actually a. I found it's a good challenge playing as the dark pieces, because it makes you think right you're, you're one step behind.
Angelo:And if one thing I've noticed about chess, as well as most strategic games and jujitsu as well, is that no matter what position you're in, there's like a weak point. So, um, let's keep it at chess, right, if you're, if you've got like a really solid uh line of pawns but you haven't really moved any of your bigger pieces out, maybe you you have a good defense, but you aren't going to be able to make uh gain any momentum from way back here while you know, maybe it's hard to break through your line of defense, whereas if you are playing aggressively, maybe you're going to be able to take advantage of a certain spot. But you, the more you move wildly, the the more you leave yourself open for an attack. So it depends on who you're playing and how they play and how aggressively. I love strategy games as well, but abundance.
Chris:Oh, back to the topic of abundance Abundance.
Chris:You know when I was, um, excuse me, you know when I was, uh, studying some of our ancient history, like right at the cusp of developing our own civilizations, and going into like history, so I guess, just pre-history, like for a moment, as we had like houses and temples and like a little bit of agriculture, fishing, culture and developing languages and culture and all this other stuff, for a moment we had world peace, interesting, and the cause of that was that we had an abundance of resources. So we had, like you know right, enough food, enough shelter. And we were like, hey, do you guys have enough food and shelter? Here's some food and shelter for you guys. Have at it. And it was great. And then we, probably, I, I would I would say that we're still there, in a weird way. We still have an abundance of money and food and enough entertainment to go around.
Angelo:It's just that it's all going to a small percentage. It's accumulated to a small percentage of people.
Chris:But I think we could still have that. We just read up on our history a little bit, know that we have an abundance and figure out how to get that abundance to more people.
Angelo:I think we've got a ways to go, good luck. Well, I think it's a communication issue, because I think even if two people are willing to go that route, they both have different ideas on how to get there. There's going to be a bumping of heads, and there's just right now. We live in such an antagonistic political climate.
Chris:I think this two-party system Exactly, I think communication's actually a symptom of the real issue, which is that there's a scarcity of spiritual power in the world okay, go deeper, into that okay uh, there was a short period in my life in recent history where I had, um, an abundance of spiritual power and I was sharing it with the people around me right, my family and it was. It was weird because these psychological and emotional issues that I've been dealing with for my entire life were suddenly resolved by this grace that I was given and I know that if I can attain it like this you know, I don't want to be too self-deprecating here, but like you know, this person who had had his moment of degeneracy right in his life and deconstructed his faith if I can go back and attain that and share it with people, I think anybody can do that. It's not going to be easy, but I think if we bring more of that spiritual power and energy and grace into the world, so I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by spiritual power.
Angelo:When you say you had an abundance, what?
Chris:what well, I? I specifically mean the christian idea of grace. Okay, I should probably define that later. Let's put grace down, because I'm not sure I have a good working definition for grace, but I know I had it and I know when I had it, suddenly all of the material things of the earth just didn't feel like they were worthy of my attention and my focus anymore. The only thing that was worthy of my attention was God, and the more I was able to tap into that, the only metaphoric thing was God was like this ball of light here and I was tapping into it and it was flowing in a confluent relationship with me and me, with it and him, and that grace was flowing out into the world.
Angelo:And you feel, like now, that that state of mind was a positive thing, or do you feel like that was an?
Chris:illusion.
Angelo:I feel like it was a positive and real thing okay, which is interesting because I we were talking earlier about the notion of care and attention to other things in your reality and the fullness that you can have of giving attention to even the minute things in life. That's almost like a polar opposite idea idea. But I mean, when you say you gave your your full attention to god, what I'm, I guess that that's just a very um abstract thing to think about. I'm kind of like, what did you mean by god in that sense? Do you mean like the source of being you were just fully attentive to?
Chris:So I guess, right, as a Christian, I was tapped into the spirit of Christ. Okay, right. So the spirit, the immaterial thing that drives a human body and mind, and christ, the, the salvation of jesus, right, the christ, it means an immaterial thing that was spilling out into physical reality. So I would argue that we have an abundance of like sensual things that we can enjoy, right, like food, entertainment, but we have a scarcity of temperance. There's like a scarcity of virtue that we need to amend. And when we amend that scarcity of virtue, we'll amend our abundance problem as well.
Matt:So what I'm hearing here? That? Was powerful, for sure.
Angelo:Wow. So what I'm hearing here is there's like a level of like physical objects and material things. Right, you can have abundance of food, you can have an abundance of wealth or stuff or whatever.
Angelo:And then there's like another level where and you're talking about the level of virtue, which maybe there's actually multiple levels here of virtue, which maybe there's actually multiple levels here but I would say the level of virtue is it has to do something with, um, it's even our capacity to relate to those physical things, in a sense Like, if you're talking about temperance, um, that's your temperance would be like how, uh, how do I put this? Temperance would be something like how you, how much of that stuff that you're willing to take in? Or if you're, if you're addicted to that stuff, you're kind of like taking too much in. I'm trying to think of the right phrasing to put it.
Matt:I think it comes back to this Like you can freely pick it up or put it down when you need to, right pick it up or put it down when you need to so you're not attached to it, but you're not just letting things slide through your fingers, because you can be a slave to an object or a need.
Angelo:You can be a glutton, you can be lustful, you can be greedy let's not complicate it too much.
Chris:Let's just say it's like chocolate cake, right, you don't want to have like too much, you don't want to grasp too much chocolate cake for yourself. That's not. You're addicted to the chocolate cake, then you don't want to completely deprive yourself of it. You know, not necessarily, unless you know there was a christian thing called fasting. I think I mean probably in other religions as well. That's funny.
Angelo:I mean it's okay to enjoy chocolate a lot, but you can enjoy it.
Matt:I don't know if you guys have seen it. By the way, it's a really good one to watch in terms of chocolate and abundance and scarcity, anyway, but continue.
Angelo:So the temperance here would be your ability to not take too much but not deprive yourself unnecessarily.
Matt:Yeah, I think to not take too much, but not deprive yourself unnecessarily.
Chris:Yeah, I think that would be. That's a good definition of yeah, temperance, right, there's also prudence, right, yes, and your ability to judge situations one of the yeah four carnal virtues I think are justice temperance, prudence, and is it courage. Yes.
Angelo:Oh yeah, good with my Greek.
Chris:Didn't even have to stop. He was just like it's this, this, this and this.
Angelo:Yes, you guys fluffed me up, got an abundance of compliments here what can we say? I can name all seven dwarves but no, no, no that's, that's, no, that's that's.
Matt:Another element too is the balance between, say, the people who, the people who are like overly flattering, and also the people who may be overly critical too, and to take both with a grain of salt, you know, it's like there could be some things that they're genuinely pointing to, like you could have some genuinely amazing attributes about you, and they're just. They're just, you know, genuinely enthusiastic about you and genuinely what's what's a much better word admiring, you know, genuinely admiring of you. And then there are the people who could be overly critical and they could put and be pointing out the spots where perhaps could use some improvement they're both.
Matt:They could be both doing you a favor really because also people who are critical, could be pointing out areas where you could improve, and they could say, no, thank you for that, awesome. Then you take that and then you know you don't have to take the negative emotions or negativity. You kind of go, okay, cool, but then you go back to the center. You know, like, what's the truth within both of those statements. You know.
Angelo:There's also an aspect of envy there. These people could be being two-faced, like if you've ever seen the mean girls. They're like oh I love that top, and then that top is the ugliest right, there's like a there's like a two-faced you know, backhanded compliment. They're almost taking that game that I talked about earlier with the kids, and another level of it is I'm going to make you think that I'm playing with you and then, behind your back, I'll betray you.
Chris:So humans are complicated.
Angelo:Oh, whoa man, you get levels man.
Matt:Let me write that down. Oh my god.
Angelo:Are you really going to?
Matt:write that down, god. Let me make a note of that. But I mean the element of I mean the element of envy there is they.
Angelo:They see that you have something that they wish they had and you are like a reflection of their um iniquities. What do you? What do you?
Matt:call it. They're a reflection inadequacies. There you go.
Angelo:Yes so they're like, oh like, I want to say something, but there's a there's not a genuine spirit of admiration underneath.
Matt:So there's there's two parts in that I want to talk about too is there's the two qualities, like there's the positive um mentality of abundance right and then there's this charge to go and do things.
Matt:That makes that abundance possible, right? So it's like you can't if you have one, if you have this person who just you have like a really good figure, you go to the gym, you know this person like takes care of themselves and you're lifting, you're doing all these good things, you know nutrition, you got that on point. And then like, oh, look at this gym rat, look at this person, whatever it's like, and if you're envious, it's like, don't feel bad about the work that you didn't do that that person did to go into to refine their form and do like, if you don't want to go to the gym, don't go to the gym, but don't don to the gym, but don't, don't, you know, put on this front and this negativity and this, like you know, this false.
Angelo:Trying to drag someone else down to your level? Yeah, exactly Right, because they your lazy ass level, yeah right.
Chris:Because that person had the positive growth mindset and the oomph to go and do the thing to get the abundance that they wanted to get right right so if you have a scarcity of that right, stop in the moment of where you are and bring an abundance of virtue to yourself, yeah, and then decide go to the gym or eat a salad, maybe do both, or, if you're already there, you're.
Angelo:You're getting fit, you're in a positive spin, you've got an abundance of that virtue. Share with others. Yes, bring that mindset to people that you care about. Share with someone that and not not to lower lord over them, like uh, you think that you're better than them, or anything, but like, hey, this is something that I find joy in this, something that makes me happy, and I want to share that with you well, I want you to feel the same way that I do and hopefully there's a good spirit of that in the spirit of missionary work.
Chris:Right like it says it's either Acts or it's Romans, but the Bible says the apostles and the disciples of Jesus. They gave up everything that they had to go preach the word of God and that's the idea Like they had something real, they had something good that gave them an abundance of virtue and joy. They were like and I think even peter says to uh, a paralytic outside the temple, he says I don't have much, but what I have I will give you stand and be healed in the name of jesus, and he does, and he is healed in the name of jesus.
Angelo:And just like the fishes and loaves, even if he doesn't have much yeah, it's enough he multiplies it yeah, the point where he's spiritually.
Chris:I do think that parallel is a spiritual metaphor.
Angelo:It's not about physically multiplying food. It's about you can do that too with your spiritual.
Matt:Well, yes, yeah, let's go to the how to bring that like how to materialize it yeah, like say, how say you have I love going back to the potential of the thing, the thought, the non-formness of the thing, visualizing at first, right. So say you have an idea in your mind whether it's, you know, an abundance of virtue, an abundance of friends. An abundance of virtue, an abundance of friends, an abundance of faith, an abundance of wealth, all those things. It starts as a conceptualization first, right, yes, and then you focus on that. And where we focus, like we imagine the water flowing towards it, imagine, like irrigation ditches, that your thoughts as water are flowing towards that thing.
Matt:Right, so you can direct your thoughts in a certain direction right, and the more that you point your thoughts towards that, the more this. Now I love this. I don't know if you guys checked out the uh, was it it the Strangest Secret? By Earl Nightingale.
Matt:He did this amazing, amazing radio address where he talks all about this and one of the key points that he makes in there, that wise people have said over and over and over again, from all different cultures cultures like what you think about all day long. You then become right. So you shape your behaviors, you shape your life by your thoughts right and the energy you put into your thoughts. So being so, you know, so you think about that all the time. You know you think about yourself as a strong, so you think about that all the time you know you think about yourself as a strong person. You think about yourself as abundantly in faith and you focus on that. You pour your energy and your focus into that. Then that magnifies and that materializes and the irrigation ditches of your thoughts and the water flowing towards them then shapes your mind. That then goes into your external reality. Right, yeah, because you are that, because you are being that, because you've just spent so much time thinking about it. That that's.
Angelo:Your thoughts become words and words become actions, actions become habits and habits become it impacts the world around you.
Matt:So it's through that impact that you make that change possible, that you make that thing gravitate into your life. So that's really what it is. I mean, if you were to make a practice of just of setting aside time to think about these things and to pour energy, to pour enthusiasm and that oomph into those thoughts you know, or care like we talked about earlier.
Angelo:Yeah, put some some care and some will into into those thoughts yeah, the doing of, and that's really.
Matt:It is the bringing them from the thoughts into the body you know, and your body as the medium that then brings them into your external reality.
Chris:That's great.
Angelo:Alright, well, honestly, I think that was a pretty good talk on abundance.
Chris:I think so.
Angelo:I think it might be a good stopping place to kind of wrap it up and uh, thank you all for joining us. We had a great time talking about abundance and scarcity with you and, um, if you've made it this far, thank you for sticking around. We hope that you'll join us for the next one. Have a good one.
